Magnesium Chloride on Roads
MONDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2003

The Board of Montana Flathead County Commissioners met in continued session at 8:00 o'clock A.M. Chairman Watne, Commissioners Gipe and Hall, and Clerk Robinson were present.
MEETING W/ JIM ANDLER RE: MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE ON ROADS @ JUSTICE CENTER CONFERENCE ROOM

The following representatives introduced themselves, Dean Wehr of Great Salt Lake Minerals; Dan Williams of Montana Department of Transportation Maintenance Specialist; Dave Wilkening with Redmond Minerals out of Salt Lake City. Wilkening advised he does testing and quality controls.

Chairman Watne opened the meeting requesting that Jim Andler address the audience.

Andler advised that he wanted this meeting to discuss concerns related to the use of mag chloride as a deicer. Andler wanted several issues addressed:

(1) the safety element on private and commercial vehicles, which will corrode, rust, brakes, wiring etc.

(2) What is this going to do to our infrastructure such as roads, bridges, culverts, signs, watersheds, ground water?

(3) What impact does it have on wildlife such as deer, elk, goats and what about the danger element for drivers? Andler noted he has heard many stories relative to seeing deer licking the deicer on the road as it is a salt base.

(4) The economical factor – what it is going to cost later for the commercial vehicles buses, trucks and private vehicles.

Andler noted he purchases a vehicle for longevity and is not able to purchase a new one when rust appears on the vehicle. Andler questioned whether the County and State were going to make huge concessions for drivers that move into this area who want to drive 70 miles per hour. Andler advised that he circulated a petition and has obtained somewhere between 3500 and 4000 signatures in a little over a week. He noted the petitions were dropped off at random places such as convenience stores and many businesses were missed. He noted he receives 20 to 30 messages daily from people who are tired of the effects from the use of mag chloride. Andler calculated that 1% wanted to continue the use of mag chloride. Andler related the story of an individual who just purchased a $50,000 rig and it’s already rusting on the bumpers. He also referred to a call from a landscape architect who works for Glacier National Park and they won’t allow the use of mag chloride in the park and in addition are banning its use in Canada. Andler stated he came from Hot Springs yesterday morning where there wasn’t hardly any snow on the road and there was a State Highway plow, plowing the road. He was advised during a stop at a convenience store that they already had the deicer sprayed on the road. I don’t want this, and maybe you guys feel the same way. I don’t want these chemicals on the roads. Andler stated he wanted to see some sand or just have everyone drive slower. People have advised him that they are not even buying winter tires anymore because of the conditions of the winters. Andler reiterated that people can drive slower. Andler next noted the concerns raised relative to the Federal Clean Air Act. Andler believes they get some subsidies from compliance with the Act and stated again that we could not use sand thereby complying with the Act and people just drive slower. Andler stated that the bottom line is, are we selling out Montana for some money from the Federal Government? Andler speculated that more people would be attending the meeting if people did not have to be at work.
Commissioner Hall requested that everyone keep their comments to two to three minutes.

Brown stated he was getting pretty tired of what is going on with the road systems with the magnesium chloride. He noted he has spoken with Bob Watne and is in agreement with him. Brown asked for a show of hands for anyone in favor of using mag chloride. Brown stated that we are here today because we are tired of having our Road Department saturating our roads with a highly corrosive liquid deicer magnesium chloride. We understand that we live in northern Montana where the winter months produce snow and ice. Up until about nine years ago we got by very well with sanding the roads. Maybe a non-corrosive deicer at the intersections would be a good alternative in the form of sand or washed chips on the remainder of the roads as needed. Brown read various sources relative to the use of magnesium chloride. From Dan William’s desk dated October 11, 2002: Another winter season is upon us and we will be using salt and mag chloride for winter maintenance. Protecting our investment in equipment is an obligation to the taxpayers, it shows pride and makes good sense. I know there is much concern over corrosion issues and especially about mag chloride. A recently published report from the Colorado D.O.T. and University of Colorado did a corrosion comparison between road salt and magnesium chloride on two different grades of aluminum and two grades of stainless steel. There is a marked difference to the resistance of corrosion and quality of metals. Better, more expensive metal grades resist corrosion better, but the study uses three different corrosion tests with different results. MDT is a member of the Pacific Northwest Snow Fighters Consortium and we use the mace test. We feel it more closely mimics real life conditions. What the research was able to conclude was that road salt is more corrosive to the metals than mag chloride on a one time exposure, but there is a difference in the chemicals and how they react to humidity. Road salt brine on your vehicle will dry into a white glazing salt coating. It will generally stop corroding until it gets wet again. Road salt won’t easily go back into solution unless there is free moisture like rain or melted snow. Mag chloride on the other hand won’t easily dry out. It likes water. It will stay moist if there is relative humidity above 27%. Even if mag chloride does corrode less per event by staying moist, it will corrode longer. From the Pacific Northwest Snow Fighters: A report from LeGrande, Oregon spoke of environmental concerns with the use of mag chloride including steel and concrete problems. They use CMA instead, considering it to be more environmentally friendly. Oregon saw signs of steel rusting inside concrete and corrosion problems after one application even when products from the approved list were used and mag chloride is on the approved list. Brown stated that Montana says they have an active program to educate people about washing vehicles to remove chemicals and then asked if anyone was aware of the program. He stated he had seen a notice in the Daily Inter Lake at the end of a related story on November 27, 2001. Brown advised that he did not consider that an active program. Burns Concrete, Idaho Falls, Idaho: Magnesium Chloride as a Road Deicer a Critical Review: Referring to the effect that mag chloride has on concrete, a literature review list from a worldwide search will reference a body of scientific literature and study that indicate that salt containing magnesium are the most destructive deicing chemical commercially available. From the extensive damage to concrete surfaces observed this past winter, whatever was done appears to be not adequate. Under how magnesium chloride damages concrete: While deicing salts containing sodium, potassium and calcium are clinically innocuous to concrete, this is not true of magnesium. The magnesium ions accumulate and react with the cementitious compound calcium hydrate converting it to magnesium cylican hydrate or mineral called Lucite which is non-cementitious. In other words the fundamental major mineralogical product of solidified concrete has been chemically altered, completely changed, formation of magnesium cylican hydrate breaks down the glue that binds aggregates together and concrete surfaces begin to deteriorate. The net effect, we now have a chemical and physical attack that concrete is not designed to withstand nor be subject to. The bad news the consequent damage to concrete and its financial impact upon the community at large is significant. The last essential point of this review is that this material is extremely corrosive, causing damage to plant and vegetable life and greatly accelerating the destruction of most metals, primarily automobiles and their accessories. The producers of the magnesium chloride have claimed to have integrated a corrosion inhibitor in an attempt to negate some of the auto damage but a joint study by the Colorado Transportation Department and a national trucking association as a result of trucker’s complaints about corrosion to their vehicles and electronics has not won out that this corrosion inhibitor is effective. Brown believes there are plenty in the room that can attest to that. The MSDS sheet on mag chloride from Peters Chemical Company: Under spills or leak procedures it states steps to be taken in case material is released into the environment reads as follows: Report spills to the National Response Center, suggested local action, contain spill, and prevent large quantities from contacting vegetation or domestic or natural water sources. If material is not contaminated, place in appropriate container for disposal. Disposal method if contaminated with other materials, the nature and extent of contamination may require the use of specialized disposal methods. If disposal is necessary comply with all local, state and federal regulations, contact your local EPA office for help. For hazardous waste regulations call this hot line. An article out of Heavy Duty Trucking magazine: Magnesium Chloride a Miracle Corrodes. Back in the early 90s the people who maintained roads in cold climates thought they had found a miracle. It came in the form of a chemical compound, a liquid solution of a magnesium and chloride that lowers the freezing point of water. Sprayed onto roads before a storm mag chloride may prevent snow from sticking and ice from forming. Everywhere they looked state road departments saw damages from mag chloride. By keeping roads cleared, they prevented accidents and kept traffic moving. They didn’t have to use as much sand so they had less air pollution, less pulp and fewer complaints about corrosion and less environmental damage to seals. The chemical is more expensive than their traditional tools but when they were done with the math it was no contest. Mag chloride delivered more than it cost. Snow fighters are committed to public safety and snow and ice gained the upper hand. In mag chloride they were thinking they had found a way to conquer demon winters, but real miracles are few and far between, and it is clear that mag chloride is failing to make the grade. The compound is turning out to have long term effects that tarnish literally its early reputation as the salvation of winter travel. 

  Truckers who face the greatest exposure are thinking mag chloride packs a killer punch. They have found that its corrosive properties are eating away at vital components, often the damage is cosmetic. The chemical eats into aluminum and stainless steel, pitting and scarring the services that give good well maintained equipment a pleasing appearance. But some damage runs deeper. Fleets that have been exposed to mag chloride report that their wiring systems are deteriorating at an alarming rate. Maintenance people believe that the chemicals wick into connection points and eat away at copper wiring and truckers in some types of operations are expressing even more serious concerns. They are seeing damage that scares them. Corrosion in structural equipment could lead to catastrophic failure at highway speed. One maintenance vice president of a national LTL Fleet describes pushing his pen clean through a structural element on a trailer suspension that he believes had been rotted by mag chloride. In fact truck maintenance professionals are alarmed. The Technology and Maintenance Council of America Trucking Association has scheduled a steady session on corrosion problems in brakes and ATA has asked the Federal Highway Administration to support an in depth study of deicers including mag chloride. With these bells going off you would think that trucking companies, equipment suppliers and the highway maintenance community would be arm in arm in search of a solution, but that’s not happening, at least not in an effective way. Lack of information, poor communications, political interests and plain old hard set attitudes are hampering progress. This is most worrisome to trucking interests who are following the issues closely with the potential long term threat. For one thing, states are using more mag chloride which increases exposure. Other corrosion problems are being spread through the national fleet by equipment turnover. Generally fleets say it takes time for mag chloride damage to show up so fleets that wash their equipment regularly and turn it over on a two or three year cycle might avoid much of the problem. Maintenance professionals say that once mag chloride wicks into a joint between two metals, it’s there to stay unless you disassemble the pieces, clean them and paint them. In fact, equipment turnover shifts the corrosion problem to the second or third owner, who may or may not be prepared for the hassle and expense of proper maintenance. This could lead to safety and repair issues that expand far beyond the states where mag chloride is used. We’re only at the beginning of the problem says Greg Fulton, President of the Colorado Motor Carriers Association. Fulton is involved because Colorado is the leading user of mag chloride and its members are reporting serious problems. Vice President of Western Distributing, a nationwide truckload carrier of dry and refrigerated freight based in Denver, says that at first mag chloride just caused cosmetic problems, it corroded the aluminum on tractors, drive bands and reefer trailers, but now he’s experiencing astronomical failures in his wiring system. Mag chloride corrodes his wiring several feet at a time on equipment that is only four months old. He said, I’ve never seen anything like it. While Colorado awaits laboratory results, maintenance personnel for state police in Idaho and Montana do not hesitate, the problem is mag chloride. I think the number one corrosion problem with deicer is that it attacks the wiring the worst, says Montana State fleet manager, Jack May. If you have a wire that you have probed, it will eat through the conductor in a week. He said deicer will seep into junction boxes and electrical components with wiring connections and circuit boards and destroy them in a short order. It is their recommendation, a rigorous program of faithful washing the vehicles. He also suggests improving wiring harnesses, sealing junction boxes and painting exposed surfaces. 

 In Colorado, power companies are complaining that mag chloride mist stirred up from the road, by passing vehicles, is settling on the insulators on their power poles causing them to conduct electricity rather than block it. The result has been power outages and spontaneous combustion of power poles according to news accounts. Also, Colorado residents are charging that mag chloride previously thought to be harmless to vegetation is killing spruce and fir trees. Under Safety Threatened by Brake Corrosion: An immediate safety concern is wide spread evidence of the significant increase in the use of deicing chemicals on highways is impacting the life and performance of S cam brake shoes and linings. Severe rust build up on the brake shoe table called rust jacking by brake engineers is causing brake linings to deform, work boots to crack and break. Darryl Stewart is a major practitioner of management by wandering around, spending at least an hour or more on shop floors, digging through dumpsters and analyzing scrap piles. They all tell a story he says, and it was the brake shoe scrap pile of over 100 shoes. Mechanics were pulling off brake lines which weren’t 50% worn, but were cracked, loose around the rivets and showed a very uneven lining wear, no one in management was paying attention to what was obviously a problem. Mechanics just slapped on new shoes to get the vehicle back out on the road. Why is rust jacking showing up now? Road chemicals are acknowledged to be the culprit. Chemical laden road spray gets onto brake shoes and depending on the quality and type of coating on the shoe itself, goes to work. Corrosive moisture works its way between the shoes and lining and eats away at the shoe table, gradually undermining the lining until it becomes loose, cracks or fails. In conclusion, rust jacking produces short lining line sometimes 50% less than is expected. Rust jacking leads to brake safety issues. The problems are driven by premature shoe deterioration that damages lining. Both safety and economic issues are involved. Don’t ignore them. An article from Land Line: The Corrosive Promises of On-road Chemicals. With winter peeking its ugly head around the corner, truck drivers carefully anticipate its icy roads, but they shiver when they encounter the slushy slick deicing and anti-icing chemicals that eat away at their truck’s underbellies. In product brochures and press releases, chemical companies promise a particular chemical is less harmful to metal than rock salt and safer for those who drive in inclement weather. However, truck drivers cannot regard these chemicals as less corrosive or safe. In fact, these seasoned truckers say these chemicals eat the wheels and housing and rusting the truck where it pits the paint. It is even eating away metal brake lining. Murray said he washes his truck, but can’t always wash it right away when on the road. He said it also leaves brown streaks on the truck. The slush left by the chemicals also refreezes at temperatures below 20 degrees making for a more dangerous ride. Paula Murray an OOIDA member from Colorado lost control of her rig while driving on chemical treated highways in Cheyenne Wyoming. She was driving a 7500 pound, one ton pickup hauling a 17,000 pound fifth-wheel trailer on an icy overpass around 9:30 p.m. on March 10th, when the wind caught the trailer, slid her rig across both lanes and laid the truck on its side in the median. She says, I have had Cat 777 semis and autos break loose on ice before and never had a problem recovering, because I go slow enough and know what I’m doing. This was the first time I have ever had no chance or time to do anything, while talking to the Wyoming highway patrolman. He told her that her accident was the seventh vehicle to roll over that night in Cheyenne and the second to hit that guardrail. I don’t know what sales pitch convinced these states to put that stuff on our roads, but we urgently need to investigate the problem. The MSDS sheet from the freeze guard: The shield LS has been added to lower the corrosion rate, it does not say to eliminate. From Heavy Duty Trucking, December of 2002: The worst chemical culprit is liquid magnesium chloride. In the meantime many fleets with only two and three year old equipment spread from New England through the Midwest and Rocky Mountain states, are finding themselves with big ticket repair bills. They refer to all of the Northern states as the Rustbelt States. Heavy Duty Trucking, Corrosive Chemicals, What’s Real And What They’re Putting On The Roads, according to the former head of Texas Instruments Electrochemical and Corrosion Laboratory and now a consultant with Corrosion Doctors: Steel will not corrode in deionized water. Chloride is the most destructive force. Chlorides disrupt the protective film that naturally forms on metals. The chloride ion is a really bad actor. A three part corrosion analysis published by the Technology and Maintenance Council of ATA: Magnesium chloride, which many think is responsible for the added corrosion starting to appear on vehicles and on the highways infrastructure bridge, rebar, roadside electrical fixtures. There are non-corrosive alternatives to chlorides for winter deicing. An alternative that has the support of most corrosion authorities is calcium magnesium acetate, or CMA, according to a technology group for the Federal Highway Administration prepared by the Turner, Fairbanks Highway Research Center. CMA and its partner, potassium acetate, or KAC, are deicing chemicals most benign to the environment. The report notes that not only do the chlorides corrode vehicles and bridge structures, but that ground water contamination by chlorides can be harmful to people. That does not go so far as a Canadian report, authored by Professor Harold D. Forrester of the University of Victoria. It suggests that deicing chlorides may be carcinogenic. Ground water is not only compromised by the chlorides, but also by the additives used in an attempt to make the chlorides less corrosive and to prevent caking during spreading. Principal among them is sodium perocyanide, which releases cyanide ions, highly toxic to fish and not overly benign towards people. Truck Point: February, 2002: Montana Transportation officials have gotten the ire of truckers for their decision to use a chemical deicer that’s been linked to damage in trucks. Use of magnesium chloride as a deicer has been linked to damage to trucks. There have been reports that chemicals seep into aluminum and stainless steel pitting and scarring surfaces. More worrisome is that wiring systems exposed to magnesium chloride have been deteriorating at an alarming rate. Even more alarming is the corrosion damage fleets have seen in structural elements and brakes. Brown continued that according to a Montana hosted website, prepared by Dan Williams, mag chloride costs $65 a ton, or 35 cents a gallon and is reimbursed with federal money. Calcium magnesium chloride, known as CMA, costs 4.63 times as much as mag chloride, not 20 times more as Steve Herzog said in a newspaper article. Maybe he’s uninformed on other details, like how corrosive mag chloride is. Brown advised he is aware of three cases where trees have died along roadways where mag chloride has been used: one along the Big Mountain road; one at the entrance to the KOA near West Glacier and one alongside the highway at Evaro Hill near Missoula. Brown stated he personally suspects the fatality of three weeks ago at Berne Park was a result of the use of mag chloride. Brown also suspected the mag chloride as the reason for resurfacing the bridge in Columbia Falls and one on the eastside of Kalispell as well as one near Billings that is suppose to be replaced at a cost of a million dollars. Brown advised that mag chloride has been banned in Lewistown, Montana. 

 In 1999 nearly 2 million gallons of mag chloride was used on state highways with substantial increases over the year. The state’s ultimate goal is to completely eliminate sand and gravel which will require several million gallons to be used annually. Brown questioned whether permits were in place to comply with the Clean Water Act to allow this volume of mag chloride to be dumped into the valley’s pristine waters. Brown speculates mag chloride also increases maintenance costs and replacement of equipment costs for all government vehicles as well as private vehicles. Brown noted that the mechanics he has talked to do not invest in the continued use of magnesium chloride. He added that we don’t know the lung or health hazards yet and they may be comparable or worse than asbestos or lead paint. Brown stated in summary, while magnesium chloride is being used to melt ice and control dust in the summer, it is corroding all metals, even stainless steel to some degree. It is rusting brake and steering components and destroying wiring to important things like antilock brakes, taillights and clearance lights. It is creating a slurry in the air that makes it look like it is raining mud, which coats your entire vehicle including windshields, side windows, headlights, taillights and mirrors, making driving conditions more hazardous for everyone. The mag chloride solution makes it virtually impossible to get your vehicle clean. It is also attacking concrete and steel in bridges making expensive resurfacing or replacement necessary. Remember Montana has 2100 bridges throughout the state. It also can kill trees and shrubs near areas where it is used. We don’t really know what the health hazards are, even though some say it’s safe at this time, so was asbestos and lead paint for many years. Who’s to say what effect it has on our lakes, rivers or any fresh water for that matter. I hope all of the road departments have listened to us with an open mind and are willing to make some serious changes in policy regarding the use of mag chloride. Brown presented the Commissioners with a can of rusted components and some rotten wires noting that most are from his truck but one came from Glen Mathiason’s antilock brakes on his truck.

Wolford advised that he contacted the supplier of the product for the City of Polson and they turned him over to their insurance adjuster as he felt his vehicle had been ruined by the use of the magnesium chloride on the streets in Polson. Wolford stated he supports another penny a gallon tax on gas to support the highway and the highway patrol. He stated that we do not need magnesium chloride. He advised that he researched the DNA of magnesium and found that to be the second most deadly metal known to man. It has been used in fertilizer production way back in the early 1900’s and DNA has proven it to be a cancer causing agent, including Lou Gehrig’s disease. Wolford stated he did not want the streams and water in Flathead Lake being polluted by the deicer. He reiterated that it is a cancer causing agent referring to golf courses using fertilizer containing magnesium. He advised of 18 players on a professional football team being diagnosed with cancer after playing on a field using fertilizer containing magnesium. Wolford stated he was scared to death of magnesium and noted that man is polluting the earth and killing the earth and ourselves. He stated that it polluted the waters in the east to the point fishing is no longer available. He believes the depth for water wells in Wisconsin has increased to 5000 from 1000 because of the pollution by magnesium chloride and calcium chloride. Wolford advised everyone to research on the internet for articles relative to the DNA connection to magnesium.

Crawford advised she obtained 504 signatures on petitions just in the Columbia Falls area requesting the Road Department to stop using magnesium chloride as a road deicer. Crawford also referred to a survey which was sent out and 57 people responded with no support for the use of chemical deicers on the county’s roads. Crawford noted that in obtaining signatures on the petition she heard comments from truckers and mechanics stating that they hate the stuff because it’s ruining their trucks and eating up the wiring, eating up the brake parts. Crawford wanted to address the safety issue about the brake parts today. If the truckers replace them on time, that’s fine, but if there’s a heavily loaded semi truck coming through Columbia Falls, Kalispell, or Whitefish and its brakes fail because of corrosion caused by this road deicer, how many people are going to get hurt or killed? Crawford stated she was born and raised in Montana and when she was growing up chemical deicers were not utilized. Snowplows and a little gravel was put down at the intersections, but gravel broke the windshields so they tried sand. The EPA rejected sand because of the dust. Next the Road Departments put salt on the roads but that was corrosive. Now magnesium chloride is being utilized and that is also corrosive. Crawford wrote letters to Governor Martz, The Montana Department of Environmental Quality, The Montana Department of Transportation, the local Road Departments, mayors, etc. asking them to stop using magnesium chloride as road deicer. The City Clerk in Whitefish forwarded her letter to the Public Works Department and returned to Crawford a brochure put out by the Montana Department of Transportation. Crawford has been told that the liquid deicer has to be stored in plastic tanks with plastic hoses because it corrodes any kind of metal. Crawford read from the brochure: We know it corrodes aluminum and stainless steel. It won’t crack your windshield or chip your paint like sand does but it may leave a film on your vehicle even though it contains an anticorrosion additive. Just about any liquid could potentially damage metals. It makes sense to wash the car and wheels when the weather allows but Crawford noted the people she spoke with state they can’t wash it off. They’ve used all kinds of cleaners and it still leaves a film. Crawford cautioned when washing the underside of your vehicle, not to use high pressure hoses in the car washes but rather a rotating sprinkler to gently wash it out. Otherwise, use of the high pressure hoses is going to force it up even further into your frame and your vehicle causing it to stay there longer. She continued reading from the brochure: Liquid magnesium chloride is what makes it work. It is combined with a corrosion inhibitor. The people Crawford talked with say the corrosion inhibitor does not work. Crawford owned a 1989 Dodge Ram Charger which was full of holes and a big hole in the floor board which she blamed on the magnesium chloride. Crawford related a story about the North Valley Search and Rescue purchasing a jet boat for $25,000. The jet boat was towed from Lewiston, Idaho to Columbia Falls, a total of 350 miles on highways that were sprayed with road deicer. They washed the boat several times, used all kinds of metal cleaners but the road deicer destroyed the finish on the boat and it looks terrible. There are rust spots along both sides. Crawford also relayed a statement from a local tire shop that said people are buying expensive wheels and one year later they are ruined by the deicer. Crawford then referred to articles appearing in the Daily Inter Lake. 2500 tons of magnesium chloride were sprayed on Flathead County roads last year. Whitefish alone used 100 tons of magnesium chloride last year. The state shop near Whitefish used 138,000 gallons. Kalispell uses a minimum of 2000 gallons a day for each heavy snowfall. Flathead County used 25,000 gallons last year, and Columbia Falls used 8500 gallons. Crawford questioned where the 2500 tons of magnesium chloride sprayed in Flathead County goes when the snow melts or it rains? Crawford believes it is going to end up in rivers and lakes and eventually in drinking water. Crawford then read the health hazard data from the material safety data sheet (MSDS): magnesium chloride solution. Health hazard data/emergency procedures: Skin: may cause irritation. Eyes: may cause irritation. Ingestion: drink water and consult a physician. Skin: flush with water. Eyes: irrigate with water. Handling and storage precautions: avoid contact with eyes, skin or clothing and do not take internally. Hand protection: rubber gloves, especially during cold weather. Crawford advised that a local mechanical shop uses rubber gloves to handle machinery that has come in contact with magnesium chloride. Crawford questioned the dangers from long term danger breathing of the fumes. Does it cause cancer or emphysema or damage the nervous system? Crawford then advised of a current lawsuit from six local mechanics who are suing because of health problems caused by road deicer. One mechanic’s arms were burned and his lungs were damaged to the point that he had trouble breathing. Crawford relayed that the bridge on Railroad Avenue in Columbia Falls is often soaked with road deicer. A cloud of brown fumes hung above the sprayed area, and when she drove through it, her eyes, nose and throat would burn and she would get a sinus headache. Crawford expressed concern for children walking home from school and the chemical deicer being sprayed on the roads and becoming airborne. Another concern for Crawford was the deicer causing a film on the windshield of vehicles and not being able to see clearly and the headlights and brake lights being covered with the film and not projecting light appropriately. Crawford speculated that when they recently sprayed deicer throughout the town of Columbia Falls when it was 46 degrees was to use it up to be able to get more for next year. Crawford expressed disgust in spraying when an inch of snow is expected as all residents of Montana should be able to drive on an inch of snow. Crawford related an incident while driving on Highway 2 north of Kalispell past Costco when there was about a foot of new snow, but instead of plowing it, the Road Department sprayed it with road deicer turning the dry powder snow into heavy saturated snow and a maze of deep ruts that later refroze and the slush turned to smooth ice. Crawford believes in these conditions instead of preventing accidents, road deicer actually causes them. Crawford also relayed that individuals who signed petitions described seeing deer and elk licking the road deicer because it is made out of salt. Crawford advised of alternatives to magnesium chloride: calcium chloride is supposedly less corrosive but costs four and one-half times as much. Minnesota has been experimenting with deicers made from corn and beets but are not as effective and emit a barn like smell. Crawford requested in conclusion that the Road Department should just try to do a better job plowing and if need be, put a small amount of gravel on major intersections. This is Montana and sometimes we will have snow on the roads. People need to learn to slow down and drive carefully. Crawford asked the Flathead County Commissioners and other officials to listen to the 3500 people that signed the petitions and stop using magnesium chloride as road deicers and search for a better alternative. Crawford suggested that an alternative be put on the ballot and ask the people if they want the use of deicer on the roads in Flathead County.

Baer stated that he was a professional driver for 18 years and has been driving in Montana for 30 years and he knows what it is like to drive on icy roads. He agreed with the previous speakers noting that the deicer is environmentally unsafe, bad for the vehicles and is unnecessary. Baer reiterated Crawford’s comments to plow the roads, put sand at the intersections and require people to slow down and take it easy. Baer stated he was the Commissioners’ boss as well as all the other people in the audience and they have all come together today to say they don’t want the deicer on the roads. Baer believes this is a waste of taxpayer money to be using the deicer.

  Darlene Jump-Rauthe spoke on behalf of John Jump Trucking who has 12 trucks plus various other vehicles on the road in this area of the State and other areas. Jump-Rauthe expressed concern about the effects of magnesium chloride used on the roads as a deicer. The most frequent damage caused by magnesium chloride goes to the wiring, which in the end affects the total vehicle. An employee of the trucking company noted the following problems with the vehicles that come in contact with the deicer: Engines that have computer controls are affected when the wiring is corroded. The corrosion occasionally causes the engines to shut down along with other things. This could cause a multitude of cause and effect accidents such as the electrical systems that are affected when electrical plugs and connectors are corroded. Pig tails on trailer cords for lights and scales are affected. Corrosion of parking brake air cans which could cause failures and accidents. There is pitting in the middle of the frame rails of the trucks. It causes poor vision when splashed on windshields and headlights and reduces the visibility of taillights to people behind them. The paint finish on vehicles is caused to deteriorate. It is very harmful to the mechanic’s hands also. Her employee’s hands were covered with sores. At a certain temperature, this deicer refreezes causing it to accumulate on the lower parts of the vehicle, including anything that is attached, hangs or is part of the vehicle, and has the potential to cause accidents. Jump-Rauthe noted their shop has its own wash rack and the trucks are washed regularly, however it is not enough to stop the corrosion caused by the mag chloride. A member of her management team who in the past has sold mag chloride concerned that the product is not being used according to the manufacturer’s recommendations as he believes if it were it would not cause the high degree of corrosion that is being shown. Jump-Rauthe also believes the deicers give drivers a false sense of security. Jump-Rauthe also expressed concern for the aquifer from use of the deicer.

Talley advised that he was a skeptic and very suspicious of claims made by people especially politicians, elected officials but most of all people who make things, and manufacturers. Talley then referred to various drugs that were prescribed for various ailments that later caused serious health concerns. Talley confirmed the representatives from the companies would be giving presentations this morning adding he would be very skeptical of anything they said.

Lewis advised he has lived here for the past 30 years but grew up on a farm in Ohio. He stated they used chemicals on the farm which now has revealed was damaging to the environment and animals. He advised wells in Ohio are being condemned now because of the use of calcium chloride. Lewis stated he could not afford to buy a new car every couple of years and the deicer is ruining vehicles. Lewis expressed a desire to return the ways of 30 years ago when the roads were treated with a little sand or gravel. Lewis also expressed concern for the deicer creating a salt lick on the roads for game animals resulting in deer-car collisions. Lewis begged the Commissioners to stop use of the deicer.

Snow presented a picture of a vehicle from Indiana or Illinois with damage from deicers. He related a story of an auto parts business in New York City having a 55 gallon drum full of rocker plates to replace that part of vehicle doors that rust out so quickly from deicers.

Bailey noted that the residents of Flathead County voted down the use of fluoride in the water. He then requested the County Commissioners to not put the matter to a vote but to take a stand against the use of the deicer.

Allen stated that there were three truckers in her family. Her husband used to pay $50.00 for a truck wash but now it is up to $70.00 and the deicer cannot be washed off. Allen stated they moved here from Vermont and noticed that cars in Montana were not rusted out like they were in Vermont. Allen stated she worked in a place that had MSDS that were less threatening chemicals and effects than those shown on the magnesium chloride. She concluded that she has not been able to find any MSDS on sand.

Relyea was from the Flathead Lake Biological Station. Relyea addressed the issue of magnesium chloride and the other constituents in the deicers. One is up to 2500 parts per million total phosphorus. The deicers are applied quite frequently to bridges which span waterways. The phosphorus goes directly into the river system and therefore directly to the lake. The chloride ion inhibits plant growth along these waterways that have roads next to them. This increases erosion by the stream and by the lakeshore along these areas. The City of Kalispell does not have a storm water drainage system for treatment. When a deicer is used in the City of Kalispell, after a snow melt or rain event, it drains directly into the water courses. Hopefully in the future we’ll have a wetland constructed to accommodate these flows. We have had to use salt marsh plants in these wet lands due to the use of deicers.

Snow requested that the producers of deicer discuss at what temperature magnesium chloride is effective versus salt versus sand or nothing. In other words magnesium chloride lowers the melting temperature but what does that actually mean for safety of driving?

Pearson owner of Pearson Truck Parts and a diesel shop wanted to approach the subject from a mechanical standpoint and a safety standpoint. All the brake valves in a truck and a trailer are made of poor aluminum. It does the job but it does not resist corrosive action. The base of the spring brake air cans is aluminum and the deicer rots the valves out. The valve body cannot take the air pressure when applied because of the corrosive action. It is going to explode and lose all of the air and consequently not have any brakes. The deicer is detrimental to the wiring system. Computer engines are shutting down. The computer is not registering a problem but when looked at manually evidence of the deicer eating through the center core of the wire is seen.

Nelson stated he was born and raised in Flathead Valley. He questioned how much deicer would be required if it starts snowing like it used to years ago. Nelson expressed concern for the deicer being wet and then freezing.

Crawford stated his shop truck was half destroyed from deicer last fall. He put the vehicle in his shop unwashed. In two months the deicer destroyed the rotors. The exhaust system was new almost a year ago and that was corroded. Crawford stated he purchased a house made in Idaho. He expressed concern relative to the health hazards he has been exposed to because when the house was trucked between Idaho and here, the frame of the house was saturated with deicer and it is gradually still eating the trailer house away. He suggested everyone get together to file a class action lawsuit adding that the deicer should be outlawed in the whole State of Montana.

Fischer advised when he was on the water board in Evergreen and they were installing their water system, one of the tests they conducted was to determine a seepage time line to Flathead Lake. They anticipated it would take anywhere from 15 to 30 days for the chemicals to reach Flathead Lake. The tests revealed it took seven days. Fischer speculated it could take as little as seven days for the magnesium chloride used to deice the roads to end up in Flathead Lake.

Wolford stated he spoke with the County Commissioner in Lake County and they are not using magnesium chloride or calcium chloride as they are aware of the dangers.

Williams stated he was in the Maintenance Division of the Montana Department of Transportation and a native Montanan. He acknowledged that this was a sensitive issue and a tough situation. Williams was not denying nor would anyone from the Department of Transportation or any of the manufacturers deny that the product is corrosive. Absolutely there is corrosion associated with mag chloride and sodium chloride, calcium chloride, potassium chloride. There is association with corrosion of non-chlorides as well. It is not the same for all metals, however. Williams reviewed the history of the DOT providing winter maintenance: In 1940 plowing and sanding was utilized. In fact people would stand in the backs of trucks with shovels to spread out the abrasives. Times have changed. In the 1970s federal laws were passed, Clean Air, Clean Water, Endangered Species, and those are coming home to roost right now. You are close enough to Highway 2 you see people coming from the Great Lakes area headed for Seattle. The white coating on the side of the car is salt and Montanans have said they don’t want that. Salt isn’t necessarily cheap. Up here it is around $60.00 a ton to get it to this neck of the woods. Sand is cheaper or gravel or whatever you might want to call abrasives. We can purchase it for I think $12.00 a ton up here or a yard depending on the source. We spent last year $13 million providing winter maintenance in Montana. We plowed three and one-quarter million miles. We applied three million gallons of mag chloride on the roadways. That is $13 million for labor, equipment and materials; the largest amount going to labor. We applied abrasives, 345,000 cubic yards of material. To make that a little closer to home that is one billion pounds of sand we put on the road. It is a big business. We have 4,600 pieces of equipment in our maintenance and construction fleet. We have about 600 snow plows state wide. If we have a snow storm state wide that covers all of our roads and we plow it one time, we will plow close to 50,000 miles in that storm and our customers expect us to do that in a day – 12 hours. That is two times around the earth. We can’t put all of our troops in the field at one time because we have to work after others get tired so we have to stage our equipment and stage or people. Safety is a concern of everyone. Jim Richman in the Equipment Bureau monitors all of the equipment. Our oldest plow trucks right now are 1988 tandem axel plow trucks. We have yet to trade one in. They are 15 years old. They have 300,000 miles on those trucks. Not much in regard to the industry or over the road hauling. Nonetheless, we are racking up a lot of miles. You think of the last 10 years, we don’t always do three million miles a year, but we’ve done a good honest two. That’s 20 million miles we’ve put on the road and driving with sodium chloride in our sand and mag chlorides. Montana made a conscious decision not to use salt. But we store our abrasives outside. We crush and store our stock piles. We have close to 400 stock piles statewide and they’ll turn into the Rock of Gibraltar if we don’t put something in it to keep it open or available. We mix 2-3% by weight salt in those stockpiles. But out of that we still get chunks and hunks coming out. We want our sand to be 3/8th minus to try to prevent breaking windshields and yet when we put it in the stock piles outside, if we can get it out of an opening this big, we’re dealing with softball size material sometimes, so increasing the salt in there is better for us. It flows better. It breaks fewer windshields. Our salt content has gone up from 5 to about 7%, depending on where you are in the state. So we’re using quite a bit of salt as well. Our equipment person is seeing damages such as rust jacking to brakes or components failing. We don’t have any safety failures to our plow trucks. We wash our trucks frequently. We do what we call a PM2 at 20,000 miles. We pull the wheels on the vehicle and we look at it. You guys don’t have that luxury sometimes either with the ability that we have to maintain our vehicles. There is also a concern over school bus safety? Treasure State Transit has 80 school buses. They also go back into the mid ‘80s with their buses and they have upwards of 300,000 miles on some of their older buses and they buy used buses

from the east as well. The representative from Treasure State Transit stated he thought he had concern over corrosion until he saw the buses coming from the east that they buy used. They revealed the result of exposure to salt and calcium chloride, and MDOT is using salt and magnesium chloride. Corrosion is an issue, and it’s a serious one. The Colorado trucking industry worked with the Colorado Department of Transportation who then contracted with the University of Colorado to do the corrosion studies that were referenced. They looked at three different corrosion methods. The one that we use to monitor or to measure is a realistic one. We can accomplish it in 72 hours. I think the chemical manufacturers would willingly say it’s one of the toughest ones in North America to pass. We had to start using salt. We drew the line here that said whatever liquid product we use, will be 70% less corrosive than salt is on steel. Steel is not the only product that we use in vehicles, but it’s a place to start and all vehicles had steel in them. So that’s the line we drew and some of these manufacturers are here to tell you, no one could pass those specifications for the first two years, and now they’re able to do so.

Relative to Clean Air, PM10 non-attainment. Kalispell is a PM10 non-attainment community as well as Libby, Whitefish, Columbia Falls, Kalispell, Thompson Falls, Polson and Ronan. Pablo is not non-attainable. It is what is called high-risk. But it needs to be treated as non-attainment to prevent it from becoming non-attainment. Non-attainment is not just an issue of funding availability. Clean Air is about youth, it’s about senior citizens, it’s about asthmatics, and it is about particulate material of 10 microns or smaller. That is the small dust and when you inhale it, you can’t cough it back up. It is something that is very critical. I was looking at the dust behind me when I drove up on Highway 83. The sanding material, the abrasives we put down are directly related to dust on the roads because it gets crushed under tires, the moisture goes away and convection from vehicles and winds makes it airborne. When we exceed those limits, we exceed not only air quality as a number but health for individuals. We have a responsibility in that regard. The EPA and DEQ monitor that number and make us compliant. The other ramifications from non-attainment are not only to human life, but it’s also to the community. New industry can’t move into town and start new business and employ people unless they can prove that they’re not going to exacerbate the poor air quality. That is an issue as well. Federal highways won’t build a road through here until we can prove that we won’t exacerbate the air quality again. We have to take measures to do that, so we limit the versatility that way. There are fifteen communities in the State of Montana that are now in that status.

Water quality now comes down the pike. TMDL, Total Maximum Daily Load is the issue with water quality. Sediment loading is too high in streams and they become a status of cal impaired streams. What that basically means is they don’t have the quality that they once did. The contributors to the impairment have to come up with a plan to reduce the sediment that they’re contributing to the stream. Again, the major one here for us is when roads are established from old trails that then became expanded and they’re typically following the riverways, so when we look at mountain passes that often have streams nearby, we’re putting abrasives out to try and keep people on the road. Middle Fork and the North Fork of the Flathead River, the Yak River, the Bobtail Creek, Grave Creek, Mud Creek, Terrault Creek, Stillwater River, Tobacco River, Whitefish Lake, Fisher River, Lower Clark Fork River, and the Kootenai River are an example of the rivers in this area that are impaired. MDT is named as contributors to sediment in all of those rivers and we need to come up with plans for what we’re going to do to reduce the abrasives we’re going to put in those streams.

One of the things we probably don’t have time to talk about here is the Endangered Species Laws. That deals with not only fish but plants. You are all probably aware of the bull trout issue and the impacts to MDT in providing transportation to western Montana is yet really to be determined. But we can’t do anything that would interfere with the reproduction and the life of that fish. When we start down this road, we have to look at what are our options. If we were to scrape aside all of our personal issues, whether we’re hauling a log or a cabbage, or whether we’re hauling kids in a school bus, whatever the issue may be, nobody wants anyone to be killed or injured in an automobile accident. I think that kind of came home to roost about three weeks ago with the Driver’s Ed students and the teacher that were killed in a head-on collision with a truck. Neither the truck driver nor the families affected will ever be the same again. Human life and safety, whether it be respiratory or accidents have to be first and foremost. I think that’s a platform that we can all stand on and share. How do we provide transportation to get product to market, people to where they need to go, emergency services to fires and accidents or recreation? How do we provide that without damaging the environment? How do we do it cost effectively? How do we do it to address most of the questions? When we look at MDT’s mission statement, it is trying to take care of our infrastructure, all of our investment in infrastructure, highways, providing a safe roadway, environmentally sensitive and cost effective. It’s a tough deal. It truly is. When we started down this path realizing that we were going to have to find alternatives, we were subject to vendors coming by our office and bringing a brochure and saying, here’s the product you need to try. It is as fresh as spring water, or it’s less damaging than. It is new country for us. We have never been in brine chemistry, nor are we very good at it yet. So we contract out our testing and quality control. I can tell you, from an environmental point of view, these are the metals we test for: phosphorus, cyanide, arsenic, copper, lead, mercury, cadmium, chromium, barium, selenium and zinc. We have maximum parts per million established for these metals. These are what are called tcook metals. This comes from the EPA Gold Book, the groundwater standards. What it assumes though is that you should not drink this product. It is not for consumption. It does mean that this product will have no more than these metals in here and when it leaves the roadway it will be diluted one hundred times before it enters the environment. When Colorado DOT did their research they indicated more like a five hundred times dilution rate. These manufacturers would readily like to see us go to a 500 to 1 dilution rate because that would allow a heck of a lot more arsenic, copper, lead etc. to be in the product. We are saying no. British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Montana all banded together to say, none of us will buy a product unless it meets these specifications. None of us are going to buy a product unless it’s 70% less corrosive than salt on steel, as well as other issues of sedimentation and storage and etc. We all share the Columbia River Drainage. That is what allowed us to qualify. I would dearly love to have the Colorado DOT as part of our group because they’re very active. When I told you 3 million gallons, Colorado uses 12 million gallons. Denver had what’s called the brown cloud. You’ve had brown cloud here. That’s air particulate, that’s PM10, it’s CO2, it’s a variety of things suspended in the air. They had to clean up their act and they have. They use upwards to fifty percent mixture of salt to their sand and they use copious amounts of mag chloride. After going through this research with the Colorado DOT and the University of Colorado, they came back and said, we’re doing the best we can with the product, and right now they’re using the very same product that you’re using right here. There are no silver bullets. There are no perfect products out there. The number that Stephen quoted what I said of the 4 to 1, or 4 times the cost with CMA, that’s true. If we buy the dry product, have it shipped to Montana to our locations, then we develop or buy regenerative processes to where then we find the quality water, we mix it with the

CMA, then we put it into storage tanks. That is going to require us to take people away from what we’re doing, plowing roads or maintaining roads into now making chemical. We’re also going to have to have storage facilities for every location when we get the dry product, CMA. That product is now a heck of a lot more than four times the price or $1.60 a gallon. It is a little closer to $2.50 or $3.00 a gallon. Potassium acetate, KAC, that product sounds really good. There is some corrosion associated with the potassium acetate. But it’s more like $4.30, when you look at the environmental aspect. Whenever you lose a non-chloride into the water, it has what is called BOD, Biologic Oxygen Demand. When that product dissolves and goes away, it consumes oxygen. There’s a chemical and a biological oxygen demand in that process. When you look at organic compounds to reduce corrosion or go to an acetate, these are also concepts to consider. That is where we come up with our 100 to 1 dilution, with a direct scuffer analysis. The MSDS sheet from Peters is for a dry concentrate product. That’s not the product that we’re using. This is the MSDS for the actual product being used here. Section 4, Fire and Explosive Hazard data placards that go onto either vessels or locations, wherever anything is stored, they’re color coded and they have numbers on them. The higher the number the highest being 4, means that it has a very severe issue, the lowest being 0, it’s broken into health flammability reactivity. There is reactivity, 0, flammability 0, health with a color code of blue is a 1, which relates to slight when you come back to the health hazard data. These are things that weren’t read off. Health hazards NA, meaning not applicable, carcinogenicity, cancer causing, NA, not applicable, signs and symptoms of exposure, you’re exactly correct, large doses if you drink it, gastrointestinal discomfort, skin, may cause irritation. Eyes: may cause irritation. Control measures, respiratory protection, NA, not applicable. Ventilation, NA, not applicable. Other protective clothing or equipment, NA, not applicable. Work hygiene practices, NA, not applicable. I talked with our Human Resources office where we keep all of the records for employees. Our employees have been working with this product more closely than anyone in this room, except for some of the distributors. I asked them, have we had any claims from either OSHA or otherwise from our employees from handling and being around this product? We have had two. One was three years ago and one was four years ago. One person got it in their eyes, and it’s a salt brine and it irritated their eyes. It wasn’t a permanent injury and it was flushed and then went away but he indicated that it happened. Another one was hands. I think anyone of the people in here that handles this product a lot you get an irritation or a roughness or redness on your hand. I also commercial fished in my youth and I got saltwater sores you wouldn’t believe from not letting it dry out or getting a chance to clean it off. Chlorides have an interesting inhalation aspect. Some distributors obtain magnesium chloride from the ocean and also sodium chloride as well as other combined chemicals. When the surf is busting on Cannon Beach and the wind is coming off the shore, you have to be inhaling a lot more chlorides than we could ever do putting it on the roadways. When we put a 35 gallon or a 30 gallon application right on the roadway, and I think that’s a pretty high rate for this area, that’s a half an ounce a square yard per lane mile. That is not a lot. But when it does become atomized, it does become mixed with water and splashed up kicked onto windshields. Be sure to keep your windshield washers full. I got a ’96 Chevy. I bought it brand new. It was my first and only new vehicle and I got the Silverado. I also got the aluminum wheels. The factory aluminum wheels to date are not showing any damage from magnesium chloride. They are clear coated wheels. If I buy after market wheels, they’re not going to be clear coated and they will show corrosion. They will look like brown freckling all over. I’m not denying that. The Department of Administrations Tort Claims, they handle claims against, in this case, the state for whatever damage. We spent several days together and they went through our testing, our research, and our specifications, how we use it, when we use it. In order for tort claims to pay a claim, they have to prove negligence. At this point, it appears as though the people, the states and the province in BC, have set the highest bar of any state DOT in the country or province in Canada. We are requiring chemical manufacturers to jump through hoops that nobody else has been required to do. When you talk about the rust belt, it’s not just because Detroit makes cars or has steel mills, it’s because they put a lot of salt on the highways. I would recommend hand and eye protection, rubber gloves, especially during cold weather, eye protection, safety glasses, because this stuff stays liquid when it’s really cold out. We don’t perceive a danger from it, but if you get it in your eyes, it is going to act like something very hot or a burn. We want our people as well as other folks to be cautious of it. The idea of it happening in a vehicle or down the road or as it’s diluted it’s going to be acting more and more like water. It is nothing more than ethylene glycol, except that is poison. In a radiator, when we put pure ethylene glycol in the radiator, it will freeze at zero degrees or something like that? When we add water to it, it achieves what is called a utective temperature. It will go down to thirty or forty below zero before it freezes. But if you have a hole in that radiator and you keep adding water to it instead of antifreeze, it starts reapproaching water again so it then starts climbing up to where it will freeze again at warmer temperatures. That’s exactly how magnesium chloride or any liquid chemical works on the roadway. If we apply it at 30%, its best performance is at 22%, which goes to 28 below.

A question from the audience was: How much you have to put on to achieve that and how much it compares with sodium chloride? Williams responded that it is a factor of diluting the product that we get has to go through a freezer a liter of it has to stay in the freezer for a week at zero degrees Fahrenheit and it has to pour through a 10 mesh screen and no more than 1% soluble solids. It has to be a clean product of sulfates and any other settlables. We stop using the product if it is too cold for them to use economically. They will use another product. They may go to a solid or washed sand or combination thereof to achieve that. So there’s three terms to keep in mind here, anti-icing, pre-wetting and deicing. Anti-icing simply says we’re trying to prevent ice from building or snow pack from building. Pre-wetting means that we’re using the liquid to wet aggregate or abrasives we are putting on the roadway to make it stick better. This morning if you had put your tongue on the monkey bars on the playground, it would’ve stuck. That’s the same principle as wetting abrasives to make them stick to the icepack. Deicing is the aspect of using a chemical to remove snow pack or ice. Deicing uses about five times the quantity of anti-icing. The question why in the world would they put anything down on a forecast, when you look at the practical aspect of it, anti-icing has to be put down before a snow pack occurs. We hire a forecast company.

Commissioner Hall asked that questions now be directed to the chemists or to Mr. Williams.

Williams advised that he would be available to anyone by phone at any time and presented business cards for distribution. Questions were then received from the audience.

How can you put something on that roadway that damages my vehicle? I’ve got a $30,000 vehicle and it damages my vehicle, you know it damages it, and you still put it on there. That would be no different than me going to your house, taking a big beater and beating on your vehicle. How can you do that? It doesn’t seem right to me, we both acknowledge that it damages my vehicle. I don’t believe that either. I have a ’79 Chevy pickup at home, I’d love to have

you come take a look at. We never had this before. I was born and raised in Montana and we used to spot the vehicles from Seattle. We’d spot them coming in. Now you put this crap on and everything’s rusted. I’ve got a $30,000 vehicle. Who’s paying for it? I am, and you’re talking about a few pennies per pound there. I’ve got $30,000 in that pickup.

Williams acknowledged that was a good question. Montana has not had a detailed safety research project. Colorado, Idaho and Washington have. They all quote a reduction of 70-80% in accident frequency from having more bare roads. By having some mag chloride on the road, you’re going to assuredly see more corrosion, but by having a bare road, you’re probably not going to take out forty feet of guardrail with your outfit.

That is their opinion. It is nothing proven. You have never proven a thing. Williams responded that if you are willing to have your researchers go and look at those reports you will see fewer accidents by 80% in those areas.

Inaudible question. Williams responded that statistics don’t lie. It is statisticians that do. We did the same thing between us when reviewing MSDS. Someone else could read another one which would be different. Whenever we take a dirt road or a road that’s full of potholes and we pave it or make it better, speeds go up. We drive faster because we have more bare roads. Williams cautioned that just because there is no ice on the road or snow pack, and the road looks wet or is wet, slow down. There is far less traction or friction on a wet road than there is on a dry road. And we have paid quite a bit of money to have a slipperiness test done and all products that we use go through a process to determine the friction coefficient. Williams could not attest to accident frequency.

A while ago you said there’s no silver bullet. That statement seems to assume that there has to be a bullet at all, whatever the composition. What harm would there be in having no magnesium chloride, no calcium, no sand, nothing? Just have it natural and people drive carefully. Williams responded that truckers get paid primarily by ton or pound or delivery of product. You are going to be going slower, quite a bit slower. If I were to require my wife to chain up today, then she is going to say there has to be something done to provide other options. Every two years we pay the University of Montana - Billings, Joe Floyd, Ph.D. Professor of Sociology, to do a telephone survey. Not to just people who came to this one with a problem, but this is to all Montanans. The survey says the first thing Montanans want is winter maintenance. That is the first or the highest priority we should be doing. The second question the survey asks is how well are we doing that? Williams displayed a copy of the survey and advised that it is available to anybody. He noted that they compare 2000 to 2002 and noted that the DOT has gained considerably. People are pretty tickled with safety generally speaking. Williams described his 32 year old daughter with five kids and her priority: Getting her kids safely to school, to the sitter, and to home and to the grocery stores. She wants a heater that works, she wants seat belts for the kids and she wants that car to start and stop, that’s about it.

You mentioned dust coming off roads and dust particulate in our rivers. Did you mention that to dissuade us from wanting to use just strictly sand and gravel?

Williams responded that there needs to be a reduction of the quantity that is put into streams.

What about the two roads you mentioned, the North Fork is solid dust. You can’t even pass a car and east of the reservoir and west of the reservoir, you can’t even pass a car without holding your breath for 200 yards. That’s definite dust. Now you’re saying we can’t have dust and we got it, we got dirt roads.

Williams responded that was true. You are talking about dust suspended and then dirt entering the creeks. Sedimentation and air quality you have both of those here. There are just not enough people to put up an air monitoring station. We have to find alternatives to it. I have given each of the Commissioners packets and feel free to copy or use those resources. There are some websites in here as well. One is called the Pacific Northwest Snow Fighters and you can go down to the Levelton Report. This is an engineering company in British Columbia hired by the insurance corporation of British Columbia. If we use too much of it, it’s harmful to the environment, to fish, to vegetation. If we tip over a milk truck in the creek, we’re going to kill fish.

In Montana, most of the people who die are in one-vehicle accidents and driving too fast and driving drunk. They are not driving in a safe manner. It is not the fault of the road. If you go out any day on Highway 2, it can be glare ice, you can be going 40-45 mph and people will be passing you going 60, 70, 80 mph whether it’s glare ice or bare road. I’m a safe driver. They are unsafe drivers. I think the bottom line that we’re getting at here is most of the people in this room, most of the people in the valley, do not want this stuff on the roads. They just want you to go out there and plow the road and we can get ourselves from point A to point B. We can do it safely. We can do it without anything being put on the road. We just want you to get out there and plow. It is going to save you money. It is going to save us money. We are the ones that are paying the bill and I would just have to ask, why would you not do what the people in the State of Montana want and what is best for the state?

Williams responded: You talk about a lawsuit action or class action suit. You don’t get anything to plow. You get black ice and everyone in here is familiar with black ice. There is nothing to plow. If we know and have the ability to go out and remove that black ice, not just treat the symptom with some sanding material, on a corner or on a bridge, we have the ability to go and remove it, and we choose not to and there are accidents and we choose not to do it because these people in this room said we’re willing to not have any traction aid and someone is injured and there is an accident, if we know better, could we have treated that? Could we have removed that? Could we have potentially prevented that accident? Yes, we could. That is one of the things that chemicals do at about 28 degrees. Black ice, very thin black ice, a 25 gallon application of mag chloride, it’s gone in a heartbeat.

But how often do we have that black ice?

Williams responded that he could not answer that.

When I’m driving along the highway and I see black ice and I see one car in the ditch, I slow down.

Williams speculated that this particular group of people in this room are primarily professional drivers. I plowed snow for many years and I can handle a truck pretty dog gone well. I’ve got a four wheel drive. I hunt. I get in the back country and I’m in pretty good shape. I don’t represent all of my family either. If you were to stop the cars, the average cars on the roadway, let’s say between a high school and a neighborhood, what do you suppose that vehicle would have? How much gas is in the car? What are the condition of the tires? Do they have anything in the trunk to help them out if they get stuck? How long have they been driving? Do they deserve a lesser level of service because they ought to know better? From a DOT standpoint, we’re responsible to all of the taxpayers in the state as well as the interstate commerce. Coming and going through Montana and we have to do that as best we can. And that’s what we’re trying to do. I would but I know there are some other opinions. We tried organic materials but there was too much zinc and copper specifically in the production of the corn byproduct and that ended up in litigation.

I think really you’re missing the point. The vast majority of the people here and the 3500 signatures that we gathered in one week say that the people in Flathead County just don’t want the road deicer. We are willing to see what happens without using it.

Williams advised that two years ago the City of Lewiston banned the use of mag chloride on city streets. The city manager now states that wasn’t a good decision as they have had a loss in safety and they perceive their economics their cost has gone up $30,000.00. They have more snow pack and the like. I thought that was a pretty interesting and timely determination. The DOT is constantly meeting to train our people and we do it rather frequently. We have computer equipment for distribution of products. We are constantly asking that the chemical vendors improve the product and we are constantly raising the bar. We don’t have to buy the cheapest product anymore. State government used to be and still does in most things, has to go with the cheapest product. With this product, we have a value added. If you want to sell me something that is less corrosive and if we have a graduated chart in corrosion, we’ll take money away from your bid price then to make it more viable and economical. We don’t buy necessarily the cheapest product. We can make salt brine here at 3 to 5¢ a gallon. What I’m telling you is that we can’t go back to the days of just sand. It is going to take the Highway Commission or Legislature to do that.

Winters here are nothing like they used to be. I see your snow plows out like yesterday just plowing and spreading that stuff and there’s nothing on the roads. What are the employees doing in the winter now compared to when we had winters with lots of snow?

Williams acknowledged that was a very good point. There are two relationships here that are very close together. The Fire Department and the snow plow. Do we know when the next fire’s going to happen? We want the fire truck to be there very quickly when it happens because it’s an unforeseen, unprogrammed catastrophe that kills people and destroys property. The same analogy is true for managing winter storms and storm events when freeways turn to glare ice, when there are multi-car stack ups, when someone slides off the road, that sort of thing, we need to have people that are available. We need to have quality equipment and materials to deal with the problem on a moments notice. When they are not plowing snow, they are taking care of signs, they’re doing a myriad of other things.

Williams advised that they have just done a press release. I think our Director hears you loud and clear and said we’re doing what we call just in time anti-icing. We’re going to take that forecast and say heads up boys and gals, get ready, do you have product? Is the truck available? Do you know who’s next on call out? But don’t apply until the storm comes so that we’re there applying the product for a real event that does happen. That’s our intent, but it’s going to take a little time. We do have a lot of people across the state. Williams assured everyone that they all had a lot in common. He was a taxpayer too and he had the same concerns. Williams noted that Peter Snow who wrote the article about burning concrete is making concrete blocks in California because he got fired because his information was erroneous. We looked at all our infrastructure, our concrete roadways. Highway 93 and US 2, that has gotten direct liquid mag and salt on that surface for the second winter, so it’s relatively green concrete and it was open to traffic and getting mag chloride two to three weeks later. There is no scaling. The solution to concrete damage is barren concrete, barren trainment, water cement ratios, finishing techniques, and that is what the Concrete Association of Montana, the Montana Contractor’s Association require. We now require certified finishers, otherwise they don’t touch any DOT concrete.

Williams introduced Loren Frazier the District Administrator, the person who’s ultimately making decisions for this area.

Fraizer stated he was the District Administrator for the Department of Transportation and was based out of Missoula. My job as District Administrator is to try and keep the safest roads possible and to keep our commerce going at the lowest cost. I took this job three years ago. The job is very challenging trying to keep those roads open so you can get your products to market and to get there safely and to maintenance highways in the cheapest method possible. I know that we’ve been putting a lot of effort into accomplishing those goals. Dan is working in our Helena office and he’s been trying a lot of different techniques, different materials and different equipment. When I took this job, Governor Racicot gave me a directive to find the best, most economical way to serve the people of Montana. The Martz Administration has echoed that very loud and we’re trying. I’m really glad I was here. I heard a lot of things about deicers today.

What do we do now? We don’t like this stuff. What do we do? Where do we go from here?

Williams responded with where they are going with the trucking industry right now. The MHTA, Multistate Highway Transportation Agreement, comprised of ten western states, is a very political group. They intend to streamline commerce between states. The issue of trucking corrosion came to their attention. They asked for a representative from The DOT address the safety issues. They put together as their group, what they call resolution 8. What that means is that MHTA, western states, wants to work with Pacific Northwest Snow Fighters to find resolution to this and there is money set aside to do so. What I’m proposing for us to do is to go to other similar environments and ask them which of these chemicals we use is the least damaging. I want to go to one trucking company, whether it be UPS, Fed Ex or

Bob’s Trucking that is in Canada and in the United States and that they cycle their equipment the same, they specify all the equipment the same, they have the same maintenance schedules and records and I don’t care if they don’t wash their vehicles at all or if they wash them every day, as long as they do it consistently in the places we go. And if we’re using a product that is more damaging than another product, then we should be looking at that other product to substitute

it. But I don’t see the time, at least realistically that we can do it without chemicals given our federal laws we must adhere to.

Why can’t we back to like we were 50 years ago. Slow down and just plow the roads.

Commissioner Gipe advised that they would like to get together with the three cities and discuss how to proceed with them and to keep working with the Department of Transportation. He assured all that it was not an insurmountable problem. He acknowledged that there is a problem but they were willing to address the issue. He stated he would respond as soon as possible.

Commissioner Hall advised that they had been educated. He acknowledged the state and county were using the product but was encouraged by what the DOT was planning. He stated he would look at limiting the amount the county is currently applying.